Friday, August 26, 2011

Who Wants to Free a Duggar? Learning Activities-First Month Free-Click Here!

A friend recently shared with me not to feel bad about using a "boxed curriculum".  I really needed something that gave me guidelines about where they should be.  I am pretty interested in unit studies since it sounds pretty neat though.  The other day I was kind of perturbed by K12 with all the work.  However, after talking to some mentors, I came up with my own version called K12 Lite.  We still do the work, no skipping on that.  However, if they already know the material, I just have them go straight to the assessment rather than waste hours on repetitive work.  Makes sense, huh?  I had to do that after see one lonely tear roll down Ryan's cheek after being overworked for 8 hours.  In fact, I was so ticked off I almost threw out the program.  Since doing it the K12 Lite way, we got our love of learning back.  Call me a rebel if you like.  I call it sanity.  Instead of homeschooling 8-10 hours a day, we are generally done in about 6 hours. Sounds more like a real school day. 

Recently I was attacked by a group called Free Jinger).  I was told I am suppressed by my husband and am super protective of my friends.  Well, first off, I love my husband like crazy and he in no way is a meany.  He gives me lots of freedom and is a joy to be around.  Now, being protective of my friends is absolutely true.  The only time I ever grow distant to someone is because I feel like they might be a negative influence on my family.  You are who you hang around.  Birds of a feather flock together.  By the way, when they say Free Jinger they mean Jinger Duggar.  So you can get from that how they think big families are torturous to the children.  They based a whole group off of the assumption that Jinger Duggar is a miserable teen. Never mind that she looks happy, enjoys the family, and always has something positive to say.  Her attitude says it all.  I guess maybe Jinger gives some people something to talk about.  Like quilting is to some, bashing families is to others.  I certainly don't want to free a Duggar.  That's obviously a happy family that doesn't need any intervention.  Maybe the focus can be on freeing kids in real broken homes with drugs, abuse, and abandonment?  Maybe focusing on teens thinking about murdering their babies because someone is telling them it's just tissue?  I don't know. Groups like these just baffle me that focus on happy kids in a stable home.  Seems such a waste.


Lindsay said...

You were not attacked. You willingly posted on a message board about how we all had no life. Other people said that if we had no life then you had no life for doing the same thing we were doing.

Your original comment was:
"Why, please tell me why, there is so much discussion over someone getting a puppy. I know Zsuzsanna. No I don't go to her church. But I just can't help but wonder how much time you guys have on your hands having this type of site and this kind of time to discuss a puppy? I had to waste time to register just to make this comment. Sheesh. Please, go free babies being aborted rather than worry about freeing a puppy or a Duggar who is perfectly happy."

Then ONE commenter made the following comment (which I am assuming that you took to mean we thought that you were supressed and over protective of your friends): "I like how you "had to waste time to register" Because it's just so outrageous that other people are talking about one of your aquaintences!!eleventy!! Shouldn't you be homeschooling those six kids?

I often wonder if some of these "moms of many" are so used to doling out verbal spankings to their kids and so frustrated by being dominated by their husbands that they can't help themselves from telling off people on the internetz who fall outside of their little belief system.

If Zany Zsuzsu is so right, so brave, so clever as all her readers seem to think, she can probably fend for herself darling.

Oh, and GO, FREE BABIES!! (I like how it sounds like a cheer)"

Finally, one sinlge other commenter agreed. That was it. Disagreement is not the same thing as an attack.

Finally, while you may feel that the Duggars are a "happy family" other people disagree. That does not mean we hate families. If anyone would like to view this discussion in its full context the thread can be found here: Viginia's first post appears on the second page as Mom2Six.

This comment is not meant to be an attack on you. I simply disagree that you were attacked. I, however, have no right to tell you how you feel. I just do not see our responses as an attack, nor do I think they were intended as such. However, in the future, when you post on a message board people will generally respond and they may not always do so to your liking.

I would finally like to than you in adavance for publishing this comment and not deleting it. No posts are ever deleted on freejinger to ensure that everyone is able to voice their opinions and I appreciate you granting me the same courtesy that you enjoyed on our message board. God bless.

Dana said...

Go you!! I love the Duggars. They are such an awesome family!!! I totally agree with you on the friend thing, too. Good friends are hard to find but haters are plentiful.

Happy Elf Mom (Christine) said...

I like the Duggars, though I am not one of those ditto/everything they do is perfect sort of people.

Like the Free Jinger people, I have some REAL PROBLEMS with the more extreme Tomato-Staking and absolutely no outside childcare types of people. I'm concerned about some of the children in the more reclusive communities. I'm concerned, frankly, about my own family because even the reclusive communities won't have the mom with four autistic kids...

I don't think the original post on the puppy was very kind. Honestly? If I had something to say about that blogger, I'd have about 50 other things to bring up first including this 9/11 was an inside job idea. Just repugnant. I know she is your friend and she is probably very kind to her children and fun to be around, but as a former New Yorker, stuff like that makes me sick and is a slam on the memory of HEROIC AMERICANS of all religions who tried to help, who gave blood, who evacuated buildings, etc. Not trying to cause trouble or strife with you or her, but that's how I feel about that idea.

I'm just so so sorry the whole thing has blown up in your face. I tried to go over and leave a comment of my own and it looks like I can sign in, but once I go to "reply" it looks like it automatically signs me out.

If I could leave a comment, I would tell them that you are upset, that you are a loving person who was sad and shocked to see her friend written about in this manner, and that if you guys could start over and have a conversation about even such controversial things as homeschooling an autsitic child, you MIGHT just find you have a lot more in common than you think you do.

We all of us love our children. There are a very few abusive people in every political/religious worldview. IMO abortion is wrong... but so are the Pearls.

Maybe I am a moderate after all... (Ok, that's funny.)

When this dies down, I'd love to hear more about how the children are doing in their schoolwork this year and what new things they are able to do. I've been a bit leery of this public school at home mostly because I hear similar things; that they make the schoolwork literally last about 10 hours. Some say it is a deliberate attempt to get the kids back into public schools. BUT THEN I THOUGHT A MINUTE. Duh, it ALREADY IS public school. Sometimes it takes a minute to pop myself out of conspiracy mode after having had such a wretched experience with Elf years ago.

Done babbling. Love you, friend.

Dana said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Virginia Revoir said...

I know getting hateful comments bothers some but I generally don't delete my comments unless it gives away my personal info. I let people debate if they want or just give their opinion. D, I saw your comment and know you are bothered by it but remember that 99% of the time I don't get any negative comments here. Thank you for following my blog. :)

Anne said...

It is very nice of you to allow comments that don't agree with you, I have say that is way more than most of the people we discuss allow. But I wish you would address the fact that you were not truthful about some of the things you said about Free Jinger.

We don't hate large familes. In fact there are several parents of large families who are members there. The difference between them and the Duggars is that they parent their children, not toss them off on older children as soon as possible so they can try and have more babies.

Also, if you had looked around our forum more before writing this, you would have also realized that many of members WERE those "happy kids" in "stable homes" and know the pain that is often hidden behind all the smiles. Many, including myself, were also former members of the religious cult the Duggars are a member of and know the spiritual abuse that runs rampant in it.

Perhaps you feel revealing abuse in fundamental Christianity is a waste, but I do not.

And as a final note, the reason people brought up Zsu Zsu getting a puppy is because she neglects the dog that she currently owns. Dogs are social creatures, not animals that should be tossed into the back yard and not made a part of the family. If she had cared for the current dog properly, no one would have mentioned bringing a new puppy into the house.

Taryn said...

The book, Home Educating with Confidence by the Boyers(12 children) recommends structured learning from 9-12. The book,No Regrets by Alexandra Swann recommends structured learning from 8:30-11:30(10 children). Music,art,P.E.,etc. are in the afternoon. We home educated from 1985-2011. We have ticks(Lyme disease,etc.) here so many keep their dogs outside even though we put flea/tick lotion on the pets. Dogs did not go inside houses until tv programs like Rin Tin Tin, Lassie,etc. We are being programmed by the pet industry through the tv. We had pets inside and out- and 6 children. Our 3 older sons gave the outside pets plenty of attention. There were times we had more than one dog. As the oldest child(of three) in my family growing up my mother worked and I had dinner ready when she came home- and I took care of the younger children. My mother worked outside the home and many woman work inside the home. Articles about the Pearls are at Many Bible(KJ) Christians don't like the Pearls and many Bible Christians don't like any Christian celebrities on tv or "Christian" movies.

Taryn said...

I have an autistic-now grown- child(and 5 other children). We used Christian Liberty Press(MCPress math,science(Abeka),history/geography(Abeka),writing and grammar,CLP spelling,CLP penmanship,CLP and Abeka reading)-and through Abeka Books-health/PE,music,art. CLP sells some Abeka(KJ). I also had the Rod and Staff catalog(KJ),used and the Christian Light Publications/Education catalog.

Anne said...

Taryn, I only have to look to pictures and diaries of relatives who lived in the 1800's to show that plenty of people kept animals inside before the advent of television.

Virginia, the Christian thing to do when you make a post that is full of lies about a forum is to make another one where you clear up those lies and then apologies. Are you going to do that?

Anne said...

Dana, I saw your deleted comment and I wanted to let you know since there seems to be a great deal of confusion about Free Jinger, that there are lots of homeschooling parents there. Parents who use homeschooling as an excuse to not educate their children is who we disagree with.

You say you love the Duggars, I also noticed that you are an orphan advocate. Did you know that they are paying members of a group run by Bill Gothard who teaches AGAINST adoption? He beleives that fathers can pass down their sins to their children so if you adopt a child you are bringing the sins of that child's father into your home. Pretty sick isn't? Yet the Duggars not only pay to be a part of his group, they got to his yearly conferences and send their children on his retreats.

Taryn said...

My grandparents(I'm 55) on both sides-Irish and Italian- did Not have pets inside their homes-only outside. My husband's American Indian/Native American and Irish relatives did not have pets/animals in their homes. His Irish/American-Indian(Native American) grandmother was angry at the thought of animals in the house. She said her American Indian/Native American relatives never had pets in their homes,either. I remember going to dinner at her Victorian house on Long Island,New York and there was pork on the table. I walked outside and went to where most of the animals were and the pig was gone. This reminds me of the Hallmark movie, The Magic of Ordinary Days, where the subject of a dog in the house is discussed. He was insulted at the idea and she wasn't.

Taryn said...

I don't think Bill Gothard has any children(?) so I wouldn't listen to him when it's the subject of children-and I have the 2 Duggar books. I watch them on tv every week they're on. I disagree with the Duggars about computer home educating and that computer curriculum they use but I don't agree 100% with anyone. Like them we don't eat pork and the other "unclean" foods,don't practice birth control(we have 6 children,3 daughters-in-law,5 granddaughters), home educate,etc.

Taryn said...

We took our pets to the vet but he reminded us that you can get parasites(hookworm,roundworm,etc.) from them and to always watch for those symptoms. He said for the children to wash their hands often when they are around the pets(and petting zoos). He also told us that dogs have mental illness too and to watch for those signs-that he "puts those dogs down". We get rabbits,cats,squirrels,raccons,etc. in our yard.

Taryn said...

From what I have read,Bill Gothard teaches birth order like Kevin Leman,James Dobson,etc. He also teaches the right brain-left brain teaching. I have read(the books,etc.) about these things because my sister is a psycho-therapist. I disagree with it all and I'm a firstborn. I think it's nonsense. He is also ecumenical from what I read, a one-world religion kind of guy like the "Christian" celebrities on tv that teach mysticism and psychobabble(and are really infomercials for the modern corrupt "Bibles").

Anne said...

You are correct Taryn. Bill Gothard has never been married and has never had children, yet he has convinced thousands of people to pay him large amounts of money and follow his advice on both marriage and raising children. My parents were once one of those people who did pay to be a member of what I consider a cult, but thankfully they eventually saw the light and left.

The Duggars are very good at covering up their association with Gothard and his unBiblical teachings. They kind of gloss over it and present it as attending a "homeschool conference". But haveing attended the yearly conference several times I can assure you it is not just a homeschool conference, it is a week of being brainwashed into going home and doing exactly what Gothard teaches. The same goes for all the "retreats" that the Duggars have sent their children on.
None of us really know if Jinger or the rest of the Duggar children are happy, but from my experience with ATI/Gothard, I have more reasons to believe that they aren't rather than are. Gothard teaches parents to train their children to only show a happy face to the world; true feelings are repressed. There is a reason that almost no children raised in ATI grow up and stay in it and that so many of the former students need years of therapy to recover from the emotional, spiritual, and physical abuse encouraged by Gothard.

Virginia Revoir said...

Please don't attack Dana because. I've helped to support Reece's Rainbow and have youtube videos I've put together for them. Rescuing these kids from a potentially dangerous situation is not something to poke at or put down in any way. I don't care who the money goes to, these kids are being rescued.

I completely disagree with the idea that it's abuse to have the older take care of the younger ones. I've seen with my eyes how the older kids have taken on certain duties of the younger ones because they asked to. For example, Jessa asked to help homeschool the little ones because she enjoys it.

Also, why do we care whether or not Zsuzsanna keeps her dog outdoors? Why do we put so much more emphasis these days on the treatment of animals more than anything else? My dogs stay indoors most the time but that's my own choice. NOT because I value them as much as my own children. We just love to play with them. But what Zsuzsanna does is her business and is not abuse. She is feeding and caring for her animals. Not abusing them.

What the duggars do is completely biblical and is how people lived way back in history. I have the buddy system in my house and my kids love it. I grew up only taking care of my own needs, no chores, and was very selfish. When it came time to be an adult I didn't even know how to care for people's needs outside of my own. I don't want that for my kids. I don't want them to get married and go into shock because they've done nothing but take care of themselves for years. I've lived the opposite of you. I had a great life but that's one thing I would change. None of the Duggars are afraid of work and are very selfless people. Many hands make light work and that is their motto. These days mom is the slave and so people usually don't want to have more than 3 kids. It's just too exhausting that way. I love mine, I do plan on having more, and yes I will teach my kids to pitch in and be selfless.

Anne said...

How is pointing out to Dana that the people she thinks is so wonderful (Duggars) give money to a man that says adopting children will bring a curse into your home? I would want to know that about someone. If you had read Free Jinger more you would have seen that most of the people there are huge advocates for adopted children and children who need to be adopted. Bill Gothard's ideas about adoption are just one of the many things that make him deplorable and the fact that the Duggars align themselves with him says a lot about them.

I was raised in a large family, we all helped out. But, we did not raise our younger siblings. In the Duggar home, as soon as a child is weaned they are handed to an older one who then, gets up with them at night, feeds them, helps them get dressed, bathes them, watches them during free time, teaches them, and then puts them to bed. What does that leave Michell and Jim Bob to do exactly?

We are just going to have to disagree with the dog issue. God did not give us animals to abuse. He gave them to us to enjoy and use. Dogs are social creatures, putting them in the yard away from the family, especially in the climate she lives in is not meeting the needs of the dog. If you can't meet the needs of a pet, don't get one.

Are you going to retract some of the statements you made about Free Jinger? That we think big families are torturous to children? Some of the members there might, but since there are members who have large families, this is not true. If you want to say we believe handing a six month old over to a teen to raise is cruel, that might be more honest. But as it stands your post contains lies.

Molly said...

I am a Christian homeschooling mother of a large family. I was raised in a Christian homeschooling fundamentalist family. My friends have been written about on Free Jinger and so have family members.

I am also a member of Free Jinger.

Your blog post here is very misleading. You went to the Free Jinger boards and jumped into a conversation you know very little of the background of and called them all mean. When they laughed at you you blogged that you were attacked. None of the members of Free Jinger even knew you existed before you wrote there. None bothered to even find out who you were until you left your link to this blog post on their boards. I believe a correction is in order here. You were the first to "attack". Turnabout, which there was surprisingly little of, is fair play.

Is Zsuzsanna really a friend of yours, or is she someone whose blog you read? I ask because there are several things on your blog that she feels very strongly against and I wonder how that affects your relationship? Is it brought up often? Or does she make exceptions in your case?

I believe Zsuzsanna has many fine qualities. She is very well educated, is a devoted mother, and her family is her top priority at all times. She also seems to be a wonderful cook.

What first drew the attention of Free Jinger to the Andersons was their raging hatred against people that disagree with them. Not counter arguments, not strong opposing beliefs, but absolute hatred. If you haven't read her blog in its entirety please do. You should also read his blog as well as listen to his sermons on YouTube.

The topic that you jumped into the middle of was regarding their new puppy. Not because we don't think people should have cute new puppies, but because of the way they treat their other dog. The other dog is a labrador retriever which is naturally a very loving sociable dog. It is kept outdoors at all times as a "guard dog". I don't know how many labs you've been around but most labs would open the door for an intruder and offer them a glass of iced tea if they could. They can make themselves sick without enough friendship and bonding with their family. The dog being a "guard dog" leads most of us to believe that they either needed an excuse to not pay as much attention to it as they should, or it has been mistreated enough to change its ingrained demeanor. Whether or not she abuses the dog may be up for debate but leaving it outdoors in an area where temperatures are often above 115 degrees is not treating it well. I think everyone can agree on that.

Free Jinger members do not believe that big families are torturous to the children. Not only do many have or come from big families but they also often link to articles about large families that seem to be doing things right. Where the mothers take care of and take an interest in their children and the family is not perfect and makes no attempt to appear so. Very regular posters to the board there homeschool and some have large families. They are never made to feel unwelcome. They disagree with families both large and small that create situations that are not beneficial to their children. Whether that's making older children raise younger more than the mother does, forcing 10 children to sleep on store shelves in one bedroom so they can use extra bedrooms for other things (yes really), or allowing serious injury or illness to go untreated because modern medicine can't be trusted. Teaching your children to help out and have a good work ethic is a wonderful thing. You seem to have a lot of involvement with your kids and that's wonderful. However many of the oldest daughters of these large families secretly pray that their mother doesn't have any more kids. These are the daughters that are left with the majority of the child-rearing. They never tell their parents because they know it will only lead to another lecture but they do share it with each other.

Molly said...

Please pardon the 2nd comment. My first was too long.

Growing up in the lifestyle I can guarantee you that the families that are put up on pedestals by the large family/homeschool community, and that Free Jinger often talks about, are usually the ones with the darkest secrets. Those secrets probably won't ever be public. The people that know about them are threatened into silence with lawsuits that they know they won't win due to the disparity of funds and some receive "anonymous" death threats. Please don't brush this off. I speak from experience. I grew up in a family with several layers of veneer. As adults our parents have all apologized to all of us kids for the way we were raised and we were far from the worst of them.

As Taryn mentioned, and many others agree, ATI is a cult. It requires its members to follow extra-biblical teachings and encourages them to shun anyone that doesn't. It's led by one man who has never been married or had children yet touts himself as an authority on matters relating to both. I hope that you never lose friends or family to ATI but if you do you will see what it is. I have never known an ATI family to really be happy no matter what appearance they give in public. They live in constant fear of judgement by other members. Jinger Duggar may very well be happy in that community but I can guarantee you that at least one of those children won't be and when they choose a different route for themselves and their own family it won't be pretty. They already all look down on cousin Amy. Even the younger children point out on national tv that "She's not like us." What kind of family does that because a female family member wears pants and has a boyfriend?

When looking at families like the Duggars that you admire you might find it helpful to ask yourself "How would they react if their child completely rejected the lifestyle they were raised in? Would they treat them any differently?" By doing that you can gauge better whether they are showing their true selves or just a veneer.

Thank you for allowing an open discussion here of what happened. While I believe your blog post to be very misleading I do appreciate you allowing the other side to share their own opinions.

P.S. You have a beautiful family.

Taryn~ May I encourage you to begin your own blog? I've read your comments here and elsewhere and you seem to have so much to share and having "Been there done that" with raising and homeschooling children I'm sure your knowledge and experience would be a great encouragement as a Titus 2 mentor to younger moms. Please tell me that you will consider it?

Austin said...

You are hotlinking to the freejinger logo and I just wanted to warn you that you never know when we might switch that you. You could open up your little blog here and find a photo of Dougie and his anaconda staring back at you (and causing all of your friends to clutch at their pearls) - see LOL Doug thread to for further clarification.

Just sayin'

BekLovesJeremy said...

I'm the oldest of twelve children. I was home schooled all of my life. My family was a part of ATI the entire time I was being home schooled. My parents didn't agree with a lot of the things that Mr. Gothard taught, but they liked some of it and they were quick to tell us what parts they agreed with and which parts they didn't. As time when on, things got more and more strange and they got out of the program. Looking back I can see a lot of things that he taught/teaches that I don't agree with. Yes I would agree that now ATI is pretty much a cult.
However, I had a super happy childhood. I helped out with my siblings a lot and loved it. I wasn't MADE to, I wanted to. I went into marriage and motherhood with SO MUCH knowledge that I wouldn't trade for the world. My siblings are my best friends and I love the fact that I grew up in a large family. I wasn't abused, my parents loved me and I didn't have a horrible childhood just because of being in ATI. I've heard of horror stories of people that DID have a very difficult life because of being in ATI, but I don't personally know people who were in that place. I wouldn't do ATI with my kids, but live and learn. There is no point in being bitter about the past. I am happily married and have four children four and under. I love my life. My parents and my siblings are my best friends! I'm so thankful for the way I was raised. Of course it wasn't perfect, but no childhood is.

Anne said...

Psalms 101:7 - "He that worketh deceit shall not dwell in my house: he that telleth lies shall not tarry in my sight."

Leviticus 19:11 "Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie to one another"

Proverbs 6:16-19 "These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, A LYING TONGUE, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift tin running to mischief, A FALSE WITNESS THAT SPEAKETH LIES, and he that soweth discord among brethern."

Proverbs 12:22 - "Lying lips are abomination to the Lord."

Should I continue on with verses about how God hates lying? If you are still, after reading these comments and the thread at Free Jinger confused at how you lied, I'll do it in bullet points to make it easier.

~You said you were attacked, you lied by omission by leaving out that you went and attacked first. You then thanked us for providing you a new topic and gave us the link here. You brought us here, we didn't search for you.

~You said we are a group of family haters. Complete lie. No truth to it.

~You said that we thought big familes were torturous to children. Another complete lie.

~Said we bashed families. Nope we may bash the beliefs and actions of certain families, but we just don't go around bashing families in general. So another complete lie.

Deleting this whole post without an apology or making things right will be as much of a sin as lying, so I wouldn't recommend that route. So what is it going to be? Are you going to continue to live in sin and disobedience to the Bible or are you going to publically repent. I have a whole page of verse I can provide to you about this issue if need be. The plus side of being raised Gothard was that I memorized half the Bible.

Happy Elf Mom (Christine) said...

Anne & others, I think Virginia's tone was probably not the best when she posted on FJ. She was upset about the posts concerning someone she cares about. BUT overall I do think she's right; it's just a post about a dog and there are other things to talk about. There is no evidence as yet that this dog is being abused.

As to the LYING, I don't think Virginia lies. She is an extremely loving and kind person who is always looking for a way to encourage others. Like I've said on the boards, I've known her for about five years and that's not her. She has a different perspective than you do and what some might feel is just a bit of snark, she may feel is an attack.

I have felt a bit attacked there myself and don't know if I'm going back (from the sound of it, most people would be glad if I didn't).

Some of the things that are discussed on FJ NEED to be discussed. I've come across a few gems, kindhearted people who can disagree while still respecting the personhood of others. But many if not most of the posters seem mocking and just plain old nasty just to be nasty.

The FAQs on FJ were pretty clearly welcoming so long as one can deal with snark. In practice I haven't found that to be the case.

PS. I see where the concern about the dog may have originated, but I guess I have other things to worry about.

Virginia Revoir said...

Yes of course I know Zsuzsanna personally. :) Her do is not abused. We just generally don't worship dogs around here. If I want my dogs to stay outside, that is not abuse. If I want them to stay inside, it's because I choose. Not because I regard them as high as my children. I'm still scratching my head trying to figure out why anyone would bother to talk about Zsuzsanna's dog. :P

Yes, I did jump in the middle of a conversation. I did notice there was an awful lot of mocking against large families. However, I feel that your group is misleading because you are attacking the a way of life that goes back thousands of years. Only today do the parents revolve around the children rather than the children revolving around the parents. Jim and Michele are EXTREMELY busy people with their kids and play a big part in homeschooling the younger ones under 3rd grade. Only the older ones use SOS. I don't really care what they use. They need to graduate and they are. That is good. I remember sooo little about my public school learning. I just remember a lot of abuse in the school system. You need to do some research on how families operated before the last 100 years. Kids only went to school so long and then helped their family. Worked in the fields, etc. Now kids go to college and move back in with their parents. It's so backwards.

I feel lie a group that is bashing the Duggars and their way of life is bashing large families. A family that size HAS to have the older ones pitching in to operate. You take that away and the family falls apart. I only have 6 kids and we use this method. My kids love it and earn fun stuff. They completely welcome having more kids in the family.

I completely disagree with the Free Jinger forum. I haven't been back since posting my link. There is massive amounts of hatred towards large families. Just because we disagree about my post's meaning doesn't make me a liar. It makes it my opinion.

Happy Elf Mom (Christine) said...

Virginia, I know we've talked about the paddling, closet-locking and other things that STILL GO ON in public schools today. You know, if I locked my child in a closet the way the school did to Elf, I could lose my kids. I SHOULD LOSE MY KIDS if I do something like that. But schools? When is the last time a SCHOOL has EVER lost a child? The last time the social worker came by and said, you are NOT competent and children should not even be coming into this building every day?? When??

You know, I worry about Elf now that he is back in public school. Ok, that was totally off-topic, but all that to say, I can see where some people just go, "You know, public school was never an option for us."

So far, though, the staff at THIS particular building have been nothing but kind. You've seen this before. Chaz seems to either get a fab teacher or one who couldn't care less!! Looks like this year he has a fab one lol! :)

Virginia Revoir said...

Oh yeah, it's so great when they find that great teacher. It makes SUCH a difference. I'm so happy for your son. :D Chaz's teacher actually tried to move up a grade just to be with Chaz another year. It didn't work out but I was amazed by her.

Anne said...

No, you said we were "family haters". A flat out lie. Back it up with solid proof that we hate families or admit that you are lying. Happy Elf Mom, sure there is snark, but running away when people pointed out the lies your friend told, didn't reflect well on you.

Also, you are also going to have to provide proof that we hate all super large families or admit that you are lying. That is something else you won't find because we have had threads about super large families that DID NOT operate like the Duggars do and they were positive threads.

I would also like to know how exactly I attacked Dana. That is a pretty harsh accusation when all I did was explain Free Jinger doesn't hate homeschoolers and the people she loves pay money to a guy who think adopted children bring sin into the home.

The issues stem with the fact that the Duggars are paying members to a cult. Michelle and Jim Bob don't raise their children, the older girls do. And that they display their children's life on television as entertainment.

You did not state the things you said as opinion, you stated them as facts. Therefore you lied. Now you can either humble yourself and fix the lies you spread or continue to live in the sin of pride and lying and I can continue showing you what the Bible has to say about that. And if you have an issue with that, you should take it up with God.

Virginia Revoir said...

Anne, why are you spending so much time worrying about one blog's opinion of the group? I only went on there one day, saw what kinds of people the forum attracted and never went back after posting my last link. I'm not wasting my time debating people on there about the Duggars. Sure I hate the lies you tell of the Duggars but I'm not gonna cry and beg for you to remove any wrong you've spoken.

Also, why not focus on real abused homes rather than on a family that operates as many have for thousands of years?

I won't respond to your bible threats because I once used to be like that. I was very legalistic and wasted my energy focusing on little stuff rather on the big picture. People are lost. There is real abuse out there. Kids in broken homes or kids that are too scared to even go home. Legalism makes people scratch at all the surface things.

I disagree with your forum and it's treatment of families like mine or families like the Duggars. It is an attack on large families because that's what is needed to operate successfully. Whether or not you intended it, you are displaying a forum that has become the perfect breeding ground to slam large families. "Free a Duggar" doesn't exacly attract family lovers.

I won't be retracting my post. Don't worry about one post that has an opinion. Maybe instead make a forum more clear on how you are not attacking large families but rather that you just don't like the Duggar method.

Anne said...

Why did you feel like spending so much time defending Zsu Zsu?

If I have lied about the Duggars, please point them out. It was unknowingly and I would like to correct that. When someone points out that I said something that isn't true, I want to make sure I publically correct it so that no one can accuse me of spreading false information. So please provide me with the lies that I have spread about them

Why won't you just admit publically that you were wrong about Free Jinger and that we don't hate either families in general or large familes in which the children help out, but the parents do the majority of the child raising? What is so hard about admitting you were wrong?

And as I said before, if you had spent more time around Free Jinger before before writing this post you would have seen that the forum is full of people who were raised in families a great deal like the Duggars and know a lot of the abuse that goes on behind the happy faces. There is real abuse going on in many of these homes that is kept hidden. Free Jinger exposes a lot of that abuse and the dark side of Christian fundamentalism.

Virginia Revoir said...

Anne, any forum that would spend time bashing someone about a dog or bashing the Duggars for teaching their kids about responsibility is a forum that is a breeding ground for family haters. I saw what kinds of people flocked there. You are basically inviting people to come and be mockers which isn't right. Even if you didn't intend it, it was created. I raise my kids the same way the Duggars do and we are a happy family. I was raised the opposite way, not learning responsibility within my family and paid for it later. You bet I'm gonna do what works and what helps my kids do well. I'm not raising children, I'm raising adults. I've seen large families that try to operate with mom being the main person to do it all and it's not a fun atmosphere. Trust me, I'm surrounded by it in my life with friends I know. Yes, there can be an extreme both ways but Michele does not have them do it all. Many hands make LIGHT work. That is the key phrase. It's not a lot at all when there are many hands pitching in. It makes it to where every one can enjoy each other without one person slaving away.

Of course you are gonna find people that feel abused in situations just like I feel there is an extreme in the opposite direction. There will always be people that takes things to an extreme. I know people in my personal life that only have a few kids and will sit from the couch while ordering their kids to do everything. They won't lift a finger. That is extreme. Michele Duggar doesn't sit on her butt by any means and is very involved. When you see her, she is working right alongside of her kids. She does in fact homeschool the ones under 3rd grade and I've seen her washing clothes with her kids also. So the info you are giving is false about her. Okay, so that is your decision. That is your forum. This is my blog and I will have my view on things. It might not sit well with you but that's why it's so great to have a blog. It's just freedom of speech. I would not mind one bit if you made a blog of your own stating how you hate "Meet Virginia". That would be your choice.

Well, we're heading to church. Have a good Sunday. :)

Anne said...

My parents met the Duggars at ATI events way before they had a mega-family and were on tv. So I know a little bit more about them then just what they put on TV and their books. And, if you remember back to their original, before TLC cleaned it up blog, they discussed how now that she no longer has all young children, the older girls get their buddies up in the morning, get them dressed, help them eat breakfast, help them with their school work, help them with their music lessons, give them baths at night, and then do all the night time care. This all started when the baby weans at around six months. I'm not the only one who remembers this. That is not helping out around the house, that is raising your siblings.
Have you ever seen the Duggar episode where Michelle is alone with all the small children and she not only can't seem to handle them, she didn't even know where basic school supplies where. The kids were wandering around the house trying to find them.

As for focusing on real abuse, would that be the time we called CPS on the "happy children" in a "stable home" where the mother made her child sleep in a urine soaked mattress stuffed under a crib and let him slip into a coma for days before noticing?

Or what about that "happy family" where the parents kept their BABY out late, it cried, so they then took turns beating it to teach the baby a lesson? There were lots of smiling faces on that blog.

Or what about that "stable home" where the mom was glad the dad stayed home so they could spend all day together beating their daughters?

Or what about that other wonderful ATI family who adopted children, treated them as not members of the family and photoshopped them to look like demons.

Or what about the woman who literally made her children sleep in the closet without realizing it might make it hard for firefighters to find them in case of a fire? I guess we should have never brought that up.

And by the way, we don't bash the Duggars for teaching their children responsibility. The Duggars are bashed for having more children then the parents can care for, making the older children do the brunt of the raising, and then wanting to have more. Making your kids help with the laundry or dishes or cooking or yard work or house work or even helping watch younger siblings isn't bashed.

And 100+ years ago 4 and 5 year olds worked in sweat factories. And children who had developmental delays were sent away and locked up in horrible institutions. Just because they did it in the past doesn't mean it was right.

You are correct, you are free to write lies all you want about Free Jinger. Not very Christ like, but whatever floats your boat. I don't hate you so I would never start a blog saying so or spreading lies about you.

Just like you told us you enjoyed writing and thanked us for providing you with a new topic, I enjoy debating with people over various issues, so this is not upsetting me or taking lots of excesss time at all. I'm great at multi-tasking and I have rather enjoyed this whole little debate. ;)

Virginia Revoir said...

I say this very kindly but you just proved my point. Out of the thousands and thousands of healthy families, you pointed out the ones that did evil. You forgot to mention that this happens in all sorts of religions (or no religion) and all over the world. By no means is abuse only within those types of beliefs. It would be silly to say it is.

Once again you are naming an era where some kids worked in factories in only some parts of some countries. You have to stop thinking extreme in every aspect of your life.

I don't know how many kids you have but the only reason I've had any time to talk on her at all about this is because I'm not homeschooling on Saturday and Sunday. I have to take care of my family and kids rather than sit on the computer all day.

As far as Michelle Duggar goes, I have seen her successfully homeschooling her younger ones, help make meals, etc. What you forget is her job is training. Training is harder work than doing the actual job. I know that from personal experience. It's so much easier to clean up after my kids than it is to spend the time training and she talked about this very issue. Training is time consuming but in the end you are teaching kids to be self sufficient rather than self indulgent.

I don't follow this method to the T since I let my girls where pants as I do. But I do spend a lot of time training my children as Michelle Duggar does.

Again, there are waaaay deeper things, way more important things to hammer at than families like the Duggars. People feel it's abusive I don't have a TV and don't let my kids listen to anything other than Christian music but I just don't worry about other people's opinions. Thank goodness. I only live to love my family and please the Lord.

Anonymous said...

I say this very kindly but you just proved my point. Out of the thousands and thousands of healthy families, you pointed out the ones that did evil. You forgot to mention that this happens in all sorts of religions (or no religion) and all over the world. By no means is abuse only within those types of beliefs. It would be silly to say it is.

So because we don't fall all over ourselves praising large families, that means we hate large families? Is that what you are saying? If someone doesn't like something, it doesn't mean they hate it. They could just not prefer it, or not like it. Whole range of dislike before we get to hate.

Fedelm said...

Just because people don't agree with having large families, it doesn't mean they hate families. If someone decides to have a smaller family than your friend or the Duggars, it means that the lifestyle isn't for them. Often, it means that they love children so much that they want them to have a childhood where they don't have to raise their siblings.

Virginia Revoir said...

Well, as much as I like a good honest debate, I know when one needs to be ended because it just goes on and on. I like to keep this site family friendly with no Duggar haters on it. To each their own on how they raise their family. Thank you for visiting my site. :)